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rhondakucera

Need help planning my new kitchen

rhondakucera
vor 10 Jahren
I am building a new home, and have the basic layout, but I need help deciding how to build my breakfast bar. Right now, I have it partially raised with no overhang on the family room side through the corner side area, then not raised, with a 12 inch overhang on the dining room side. My current home has a bar with the sink in it and it is not raised. Guests definitely love the convenience of sitting at the lower bar, but I've been told the raised bar will hide kitchen mess better. This is a lake home with a very open feel; I'm worried the partially raised bar will make the kitchen more closed off, as well as limit serving space.
I also need help with placement of my 2nd sink and appliances.
Hervorgehobene Antwort
  • pcmom1
    vor 10 Jahren
    First off, I'm not a designer so take my advice with a grain of salt! But it sounds to me like you really want one level and not the partially raised. Just get that feeling from your posting! And there are pros and cons with each.

    My BFF has a very similar sink and bar area and hers is raised partially as you have drawn. It works very well. She sits the food up on the higher edge for gatherings. And it is nice to have the mess hidden when we sit down at her table.

    As far as your layout. I wouldn't have the single sink and cooktop right next to each other. You will want room to move hot pots off. I can see your cooktop on the wall between the microwave and the side by side. There you can have a grand hood over it.

    On the island with the single sink the countertop could be butcher block. Really nice for washing and chopping veggies.

    Kommentare (25)

    • PRO
      Dytecture
      vor 10 Jahren
      Can you provide more zoomed out floor plan showing the relationship with adjacent rooms?

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      Hello! I would definitely recommend to take out the wall. Your room will feel so much more spacious and bright because you'll also get the light from the window when you sit at the dining table. Kitchen island is a perfect idea – it creates a lot of extra storage and is ideal for a communicative kitchen/dining situation (no divider between kitchen and dining area). With various shelves and built-in cabinets you can create even more storage room. Living in a space before making any changes is a wise decision – as long as it comes to furniture. When it's about taking out a wall you'll probably never do that later on ;) Happy to discuss if you need more inspiration / ideas – Just book a time that suits you. Cheers Anna
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    • PRO
      Detail by Design
      vor 10 Jahren
      I am a certified kitchen designer and would love to offer some advice. The island with the cooktop and second sink is too small for both. You need to allow 15" on each side of the cooktop for landing/prep space. The refrigerator placement could be relocated to keep that area more open without the small wall beside it. Breakfast counters do provide a small visual barrier to hide kitchen prep especially in an open concept without feeling imposing in the space. I recommend you search on the NKBA.org website for a designer in your area to help you with the layout. Not only will it save costly mistakes they will consider all your needs for function and storage requirements, appliance selection etc. Most of us also have access to cabinet manufacturers and can help manage your project from start to finish.
    • clineger
      vor 10 Jahren
      Ouch! Makes me uncomfortable just looking at the drawing. Lucky for you you're reaching out for help!
      What a wasted opportunity. Please get experienced Great help! You will be soooo glad you did. And, you will really enjoy your well designed kitchen. ( cooking in the middle of an open space is not a good idea )
    • rhondakucera
      Ursprünglicher Verfasser
      vor 10 Jahren
      I am attaching another picture that hopefully helps. I agree that the 2nd sink doesn't work in the center island with the cooktop, but I don't know the best location for it. I am a person who likes visiting with people or looking out toward the family room, or in this case, the lake, while I cook, which is why I don't like my cooktop against a back wall. I would consider the cooktop centered in front of the windows, looking out to the covered front porch. That way, the 2nd sink could remain in the island. That would still be my 2nd choice though, as I've had a center island cooktop and loved it. I am also at the stage of life where I don't have kids at home full time, so I use my oven(s) less, so I don't need those as convenient as the cooktop and microwave. Could I place those in the corner (closest to the pantry/mud room) and place the microwave where the double ovens are drawn, or leave the microwave/ovens as they are drawn. The refrigerator is where it is because of its proximity to dining area and built in ice maker. I appreciate everyone's help!
    • PRO
      Detail by Design
      vor 10 Jahren
      According to your drawings there is only 68" from the fridge wall to edge of the island leaving a very tight squeeze if you are standing at the cooktop and someone wants to walk past you in less than 36" it's not very functional. Fridges range from 33" deep to the handle or as little as 26" but not without a major cost increase. It is also more important to have your fridge in an area where it is most accessible to your prep area. You also need to consider a landing area for your ovens regardless of how often they are used. Make sure they are no further away than 48" from a sizable landing area. There are several deficiencies in the current layout that NEED to be addressed and you really should consult a kitchen designer before you get too far into your build. It will be money well spent!
    • rhondakucera
      Ursprünglicher Verfasser
      vor 10 Jahren
      I will contact a kitchen designer, and appreciate the advice. Based on your opinion though, if you were working with this layout, where would you recommend appliances and sinks be placed? My construction has not started, so I can change anything at this point. Thanks!
    • PRO
      DMH DESIGN
      vor 10 Jahren
      Zuletzt geändert: vor 10 Jahren
      Rhonda, I have noticed a few things that may be at issue, beyond the kitchen, that you should be aware of.
      1-These plans show 2X4 exterior wall construction everywhere. In most if not all, even in TX, which didn't implement an energy code until a few years ago, this likely is an issue. My guess is that this plan is 20+ years old, and purchased from a plan service?
      2-If this is a plan service plan, depending on where you are, you may need to find a local engr, architect or energy consultant to provide you with the necessary energy calcs and forms to comply with 2012 State Energy Code reqs.
      3-Depending on where this house is located, you will likely be required to provide structural code compliance per 2012 IRC, in terms of lateral design and gravity load analysis. Some outside corners look as though they may meet prescriptive code, under 2009 IRC, but my understanding is most wood frame construction will need analysis by a licensed structural engr. under the new code, if it has been adopted by your governing jurisdiction.
      4-All dims are shown to centerline of wall. That is a recipe for problems. Every house that I design or have helped to build has the dims shown (L-R) from outside of wall to left side of wall (repeat) to outside of wall, and (B-T) from outside of wall to bottom side of interior walls(repeat) to outside of wall at the top. The kitchen, in terms of clearances, looks as if it is done correctly, but the clearances are minimal around the island.
      5-It may not seem like much, but when it comes to the alignment of plumbing walls to exterior walls, when they are in proximity, if it isn't corrected and understood before hand, you will have either odd foundation dims. or 2" wall jogs in rooms that don't belong, which could've been corrected.
      6-Your study/office doesn't appear to meet the min. s.f. req. for a habitable room. You can rectify this by removing the door and the walls. Per R302.2/302.3 it can't be less than 70 s.f or 7 ft. measured in any horiz. direction.
      7-Are you using a survey to make sure the house is sited properly, in compliance with zoning and land use codes? Hopefully it is a full survey, as height is normally an issue on frontage lots, too.
      8-I agree with the other assessments of the kitchen. but I think the kitchen is one issue unto itself. My thought is that many of these rooms, although they may appear to be oriented correctly, and may seem adequately sized, I feel that this plan uses beaucoup s.f. for circulation, unnecessarily. Also, I don't have benefit of the entire plan, so I can't see the relationship of what I feel, long term, are the three most important spaces of the house, if you plan on remaining in your beautiful home, on a beautiful lake front lot long term.

      IMHO, the best advice I can give you is this: Start from scratch. It won't be inexpensive to address the energy code and structural code issues of this plan, and this approach still leaves the functional issues unresolved. A custom tailored house design, plans and specification will alleviate all of these issues, not to mention saving you unnecessary complications during the construction process, which is where the lion's share of the budget goes anyway. My guess is that if I were to look at this entire plan, there is the possibility of many overall dims being odd'-4", even'-8" or odd'-0"--these types of overall dimensions waste both material and labor, complicating framing and founding of your home, when you build out of concrete and wood. A plan that works off stud and plywood modules will save you a lot of money--enough money to offset the cost of the design, plans and engineering, especially if this is a 3-5000 s.f. home. Even if smaller, good design can make small seem large, because of the forethought and the insight that an architect/designer can offer. This is my 30 years of design and construction experience that I offer to you, to save you from making some of the same errors that most of us that are reading this will have made at least one time in our professional careers, or as a client, when offered a choice between one way or the other. I want this process to go well for you, which is why I take the time to offer these suggestions. Happy Houzzing.
    • rhondakucera
      Ursprünglicher Verfasser
      vor 10 Jahren
      Thank you, BMH Design for taking so much time to reply. This plan was actually just custom created for me by a certified AIBD Plan Master outside of Dallas, and I paid several thousand dollars for it, so it's not a package plan purchased on the internet. It is a 4200 square foot pier and beam one acre waterfront lot that I have contracted a local custom home builder to build. We have also just received our building permit, and have a structural engineer currently working on the foundation plan. I'm not familiar with most of the things you have mentioned, so I am forwarding your comments to my builder. I say all that to say I am far too invested to start from scratch, so hopefully the structural issues that need to be addressed can take place, without incurring the expense of drawing new plans. As far as the study niche, there are several lake homes in this area that do have small rooms that serve as study niches, with either similar barn doors, or single doors, so I don't think that will be an issue to leave the doors as they are. The one place that I felt the designer did not do well with was the kitchen planning, so that's the main area I'm seeking advice on Houzz (and now with a Certified Kitchen Planner) for. Thanks again for your time and advice.
    • pcmom1
      vor 10 Jahren
      Zuletzt geändert: vor 10 Jahren
      As we get older, and assuming you will be using this house a long time, consider a raised dishwasher. You can discuss this with your planner. The less bending way over the better!

      I can't read the full plan well, but if you want to put the cooktop looking out the windows, why not just have a prep sink in this space?

      Maybe the pantry and the area around it (the space shown above?) could be changed into more of a butler's pantry: put a large deep sink there, dishwashers there, dish storage and also have it behind closed doors. No big mess to look at and quieter.
    • PRO
      sstarr93
      vor 10 Jahren
      You would do better by squaring off the kitchen (instead of the angled corner where the sink is. From you plan, which is very nice, I don't see a reason why you couldn't do that. Whenever you use angled walls, you lose usable space. In this case, the space you're losing is inside the kitchen.
      Correct, the island is too small; I would eliminate it, as you don't need it at all with your kitchen. Position the cooktop on one of your countertop runs. Don't surround it with upper cabinets.
      In fact, to make your design more modern, think about grouping your storage as much as possible in full-height units, and eliminating as many upper cabinets as possible. This will give the most open feeling, and be best for your lake house.
      You're almost there, and with a few simple changes, will have a wonderful house and kitchen to enjoy for years.
      S*
    • PRO
      DMH DESIGN
      vor 10 Jahren
      Rhonda, you are welcome. Texas was a lucky guess. Glad you are working with an engr. as you have issues with clay (bentonite) in many parts of the state, which shrinks and expands significantly, depending on the time of year and precipitation. This is a common issue that has to be addressed in your state, hence the engrs. involvement. Perhaps the national code with respect to room sizes has been edited for your area, which does happen in larger jurisdictions--I hope that you understand that I am not a fan of "everybody else does it" as a justification. If I am right, and this is a potential code violation, it can become a disclosure issue at a time of any future sale. Forewarned, they say, is forearmed.

      I would offer that even if, for some reason, the energy code is not enforced in your area (?), I would suggest that you look into how to comply, or even surpass min. reqs. My understanding is that utility costs, especially when cooling is involved, is quite expensive in the Dallas area--I have a good friend that lives in Denton, and he spends a lot to keep his apt cool in the summer. A properly insulated home with energy efficient doors and windows will likely contribute to a significant savings in energy usage, i.e. 2 X 6 walls with R-21 insulation (whatever TX code dictates) vs. building 2 X 4 walls with max. R-15 insulation, for starters. I know someone in TX that can speak directly to how these issues can be addressed. If you are interested, contact me directly and I will give you that info. Happy Houzzing.
    • PRO
      sstarr93
      vor 10 Jahren
      Oh, and in my opinion, raised bars are becoming passe; it will be more attractive as well as more comfortable to have same-height countertops on your breakfast bar.
    • PRO
      Dreamwork Kitchens
      vor 10 Jahren
      Rhonda ,
      Overall the plans look great , however I will have to agree with the several other Kitchen Designers that have offered opinions. The island is far to small for two appliances (sink & cooktop) and the cook will always be in the main traffic lane. You may want to consider moving the cooktop from the island to the counter to the right of the main sink. The main cook should never be standing in the major traffic isle while attempting to work. By moving the cooktop the cooks work area become then a private area that no-one need enter to come in or out of the room. You should look in your area for a Kitchen designer that is a member of NKBA (National Kitchen and Bath Association) , they will be able to help you make a plan that comes up to all of your local building codes. Good Luck with your wonderful project!
    • rhondakucera
      Ursprünglicher Verfasser
      vor 10 Jahren
      Thanks to everyone who offered advice. I'm looking into finding a certified kitchen planner in Dallas (as my lakehouse is in East TX, where I'm doubting there are any). Although I love a one level bar, I have been told that having the raised bar works best because it hides the kitchen cocking/dish mess. Would love to hear the advice on this from the professional kitchen planners, especially given the open floor plan/elegant rustic lake home look and feel I'm after. Lastly, with the suggestion of squaring off the serving bar, I'm seeing that might work best because of the tight space between the refrigerator and the end of the bar that Detail by Design pointed out. If I did that, would the sink then be placed where the dishwasher is currently shown? And would everyone second sstarr's suggestion to eliminate the island/move the cooktop elsewhere? It will be nice to have some extra advice/suggestions as I begin my search for profession kitchen planner. It's nice to know what pitfalls this current plan has.
    • PRO
      Robert Pollock
      vor 10 Jahren
      I see two problems right away, not related to your post. The sink in the island doesn't have any space around it, it might do better rotated 90 degrees and the corner sink. My sister reno-ed her house and that was a decision they've regretted for 20 years. Mornings, everyone forms a line, although your second sink might alleviate that.
      We're designing a new kitchen too. Rather than the two functions, cooking and cleaning dishes we added a third, baking. My wife loves to spend a few hours creating all sorts of extravagant eats, then leaves the kitchen looking like Obama's website. (I like Mr. O, but he and his gang blew the site management so badly, someone was on the take or the contract was 'directed' to CGI, (my peeps) who then charged a new world's record price for a website, and made it not work, and, made it so bad, fixing it will take enough time to bring down the healthcare reform effort)
      So, back in our new kitchen, I've drawn four or five lineal feet of counter away from the working triangle, with a smaller sink, just for all the baking stuff. We're installing two dishwashers, so they clean and act as storage. I won't have to empty one in the mornings, just use the other. Because they'll get more use, we will install them about 12" to 14" higher than normal, with a big 'pots' drawer underneath. Lowes now sells cabinets just for that, I was wondering how long that would take to catch on.
      All cabinets that don't have to touch the floor with a traditional toe kick, (sink cab, tall cabs excepted, because they have mechanical connections) will have Ikea like round metal legs, about 5" high. That's so wet/dry Roomba can clean everywhere when I'm sleeping.
    • PRO
      Linda Mayo
      vor 10 Jahren
      Zuletzt geändert: vor 10 Jahren
      Some say that raised islands are not popular anymore. However, if you do a search on Houzz for raised island bars you will see they are desired by many still and they do perform a function both in aesthetics and design sense. https://www.houzz.com/photos/raised-bar-phbr0lbl-bl~l_48290

      There are advantages, as you have been told. 1) It will make any mess in the kitchen less visible. 2) Because of overhangs, it can also buy slightly more counter space in the kitchen, depending on the configuration. 3) It also serves to make a visual 'stop/start' between the adjoining room(s).

      It would not block any view because it is only 42" high.

      But, I also got the impression, from your comment, that it's not what you really want however. Since you don't have children at home, there may not be much of mess there anyway when you cook. If there is and it doesn't bother you or if you are a neat cook or just don't cook much anymore, then a lowered island may be for you.

      If you do decide to go that route, I would suggest only one very large island. Give yourself 48" between the back wall base cabinets and the island and make it 4--5' wide.Plan 15" of knee space for seating at 36" high.

      Put the sink on the back wall and the bar sink and the cooktop in the island but give yourself a minimum of 9" on one side of the cooktop and 15" on the other. 24" on both sides is much more comfortable. If you have one long island, you will be able to to do that.

      The placement of the microwave depends on how you will be using it. If you will be using it to cook then it should be placed out of the traffic area and in the proximity to the cooking. If it will be used by others to warm things up then it should be in a place that won't bring traffic into the work area.
    • rhondakucera
      Ursprünglicher Verfasser
      vor 10 Jahren
      After pondering all these suggestions, I have made an appointment with a kitchen designer for next week, and have also decided to scratch this kitchen design due to the concerns mentioned. I will either eliminate the center island, or make one large island, and eliminate the longer two sided bar. I'm leaning toward one large island, because it seems more open. With either plan, I will put the gas cooktop (with pop up vent, no vent-a-hood over the cooktop), in front of the windows facing the front of the house. If I go with one large island, is there a creative way to hide the sink while still having lower bar seating on two sides (living room and dining room sides)? Like if I raise a center portion of the island and put granite top and decorative items there (lamp, flower arrangement, etc.)? If so, I could have more bar seating with all one height barstools. The kitchen dimension remains the same as the floor plan shown (apprx. 13.6 x 16 ft.). I was thinking I could do island apprx 10 ft long x 5 ft. wide. Does that seem correct? Does changing to one large island seem to be the better choice vs removing the center island and keeping the serving bar, but changing that bar to an "L" shape to allow more space to walk between refrigerator and the end of bar? Again, I appreciate advice and suggestions.
    • PRO
      Linda Mayo
      vor 10 Jahren
      Zuletzt geändert: vor 10 Jahren
      Glad to hear you made an appointment.

      Here are some island shape possibilities.
      View of Both Islands · Mehr Info

      The Woodshop of Avon · Mehr Info

      Traditional Kitchen · Mehr Info
      rhondakucera hat Linda Mayo gedankt
    • PRO
      Linda Mayo
      vor 10 Jahren
      Not cool to hi-jack a post claudia_nalab.
    • PRO
      Detail by Design
      vor 10 Jahren
      Hi again Rhonda,
      Glad to hear you have booked an appointment with a kitchen designer. Just a couple of things you might want to consider: I personally don't feel you need to scrap the whole current design. Yes, it does need some significant modifications it does have a good feel by creating a separation from guests. I also suggest NOT scrapping the island. Even if the cooktop does not go there it is a great place for a small prep sink, landing area for the ovens and refrigerator. To maximize the space you could cheat the main run and push into the room adjoining to the right (12" or so). Giving you better a little more movement around. Open concept homes can be a challenge but with a good designer you will be able to create the right look for you home without sacrificing functionality or esthetics.
      Feel free to email me direct if you have any questions, natalia@detailbydesign.ca
    • pcmom1
      vor 10 Jahren
      Non pro here looking at the whole plan again. You have a very large dining and living area. I think Detail by Design is right. Think about expanding kitchen a little more up and out. Everyone gathers in or around the kitchen, and if you do that with your current plan even, that would give room for a large island where you show your prep sink.

      I remember a party in a friend's kitchen with a large butcher block island. It enabled a large group to stand around and crack crabs. Being a lake house, a nice casual spot like that would be handy.
      rhondakucera hat pcmom1 gedankt
    • PRO
      A Direct Cabinet Distributor Corp
      vor 10 Jahren
      The tiered sitting area/island is an older trend. What I would suggest, (and do suggest to our clients) is all one height. This allows for plenty of counter space for the people sitting, or for the person cooking/using the sink. Once you put in different heights, you're taking away space from both people. You definitely HAVE to sit down with a kitchen designer. You don't want to make these decisions over a chat. Check with local places. You will get the best experience and knowledge there. Some may even design for free, plus offer 3D images to help you imagine your whole kitchen space.
    • rhondakucera
      Ursprünglicher Verfasser
      vor 10 Jahren
      I actually found a kitchen planner through this discussion thread, and am looking forward to working with her. As far as the one level vs. multi-tiered island, between looking on Houzz, reading many articles, and talking with many people, I've discovered there are as many fans of multi-tiered islands as there are one level. It all depends on personal preference. For me, I'm glad I'll have help making the right decision for the space I have, and the overall feel I'm going for. Thanks for your input.
    • PRO
      I turn floor plans into stunning interior designs
      vor 8 Jahren

      Let me bring your plans and dreams to life in brand-specific 3D reality ...

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      Take a free demo tour of this fantastic new design technology by e-mailing me at rmsdesigngroup@gmail.com

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